In IVP’s Hypergrowth Podcast series, IVP investors talk with CEOs from the fastest growing companies to understand the ins and outs of company building in the hypergrowth environment.
In our fifth episode, IVP’s Louisa Xu sits down with the co-founder and CEO of Lime, Toby Sun, to talk about his inspiration behind the company’s founding, the importance of growth versus profitability, how to get a hardware business right and the cause and effect of the micro-mobility generation.
As people continue to be drawn toward the urban dream and urban populations grow, new modes of transportation like the scooter have emerged to solve the last mile problem. Companies like Lime, in a little under two years, have carved out a new way to get from point A to B. Scooter sharing not only reduces the time involved in driving, parking, or taking public transit, it also reduces carbon emissions. A global win.
Founded in 2017, Lime is now the world’s largest scooter sharing company, reaching over 50M trips (up from 30M+ on the recording day) across 100 markets globally. Co-founder and CEO Toby Sun, who grew up in China’s fourth largest city, Shenzhen (which is often called China’s Silicon Valley), started crafting the vision for Lime early in his urban childhood.
Toby’s journey took him from China to the United States where he eventually met Lime’s co-founder, Brad Bao, through the Berkeley MBA network. Working together initially as investors, the two recognized their shared interest in solving the last mile transportation problem and decided to partner up. Together, they created Lime, and here’s what they have learned along the way.
It Doesn’t Have To Be A Trade-off Between Growth and Profitability
“It will be hard for us to optimize anything before we have a certain scale.”
In the last two years, Lime has launched products in over a hundred markets in over 20 countries, netting over 50 million trips. Their success came from a strong product-market fit demonstrated early and quickly, through tests in many locations to understand the operational ‘sweet spot.’ This rapid expansion didn’t come at the expense of profitability. Instead, the learnings from rapid growth can lead to profitability if applied properly.
Learning from the company’s growth in-house versus using an outsourced operations team has allowed the company to reap additional economies of scale. Once a critical scale is reached, there is a much larger playground with which to experiment. And, the longer Lime operates in more markets, the more experimentation opportunities emerge.
Invest In The Hardware Team and Supply Chain
“Hardware is hard.”
To do hardware right and build quickly, it takes significant capital, strong partnerships and great teams to keep momentum strong. It also takes the right relationships to expedite building prototypes. Lime was able to take advantage of their connections in China’s hardware ecosystem, such as the prototyping hubs like Shenzhen. Navigating these markets takes time and resources, so the more inroads, the better. Lime’s bi-lingual and China/US founding team helped – and they used this advantage to quickly and efficiently build, prototype and ship.
Lime learned that more markets equal more people who provide more feedback. That feedback leads to improved products and an ongoing positive feedback loop. And that continues to propel a company like Lime above its competitors.
Think About Multiple Cases To Address Audiences. One Size Does Not Fit All.
“The product should serve a purpose to service the two kinds of audiences at the same time.”
Local insights and approaches are important, especially for a company like Lime. And the technology that allows this to happen must be tailored appropriately to each area, so the experience makes sense on a local level. In Lime’s case, each city’s infrastructure, the broader IoT network, and the anonymously-collected usage data are all important variables.
As the scooter craze continues to grow globally, so too does the understanding and significance of the term micro-mobility. Lime is at the forefront of this massive trend.
The full transcript is below.
Narrator: Welcome to IVP’s Hyper-Growth Podcast. In this series, we talk with CEOs of the fastest-growing companies and discuss the ins-and-outs of company building in the hyper-growth environment. If you like what you hear, consider following us on SoundCloud or subscribing to our podcast on iTunes. Thanks, and enjoy the show.
Louisa: Welcome everyone. I’m Louisa Xu, an investor at IVP. We’re a venture firm focused on high growth later-stage tech companies and we’ve had the privilege of investing in some of the fastest growing tech companies of the last decade including AppDynamics, Dropbox, Twitter, GitHub and of course Lime. Today I have Toby Sun, CEO of Lime joining me. Toby founded Lime in 2017 and he’s now leading the world’s largest electric scooter sharing company. And one of the fastest growing companies of all time. If we rewind to just two years ago when the first wave of electric scooters started to emerge in the US, people dismissed them as a toy or a mere fad, but the data we’ve seen suggests there’s a lot more to the story than that. In its short history, Lime has already reached over 30 million trips across 100 markets globally. I’m excited about the potential impact of Lime in the broader micro-mobility ecosystem. Today we’re going to learn from Toby about how he got the company started, how he thinks about the long-term drivers of the business, and what he has learned along the way. Thanks for joining me today Toby.
Toby: Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
Louisa: So, to set the stage, could you tell us about how you and your co-founder Brad first got started with the idea to build Lime?
Toby: Yes, happy to share. Maybe I can start by sharing a bit of my life story. I was actually born and raised in China similar to my co-founder Brad. I mean I was born in a city called Shenzhen which is considered as China’s Silicon Valley, the fourth largest, third or fourth largest city in China and growing very, very rapidly. It’s very congested. I spent all my life in an urban setting like Shenzhen, Shanghai, Beijing, San Francisco and many kinds of metropolitans. It really is you know it’s a great experience growing up in a kind of eastern Silicon Valley to experience how kind of congested urban setting looks like and how we can live without a car. I spent all my childhood you know riding bicycles and leveraging the public transit to commute to school, to work and also being able to see how Shenzhen as kind of the hardware smart technology, IoT hub of the world in terms of supplying the global- kind of meeting the global demand and providing the high quality scalable supply. Yes, definitely something interesting to me. And that kind of got me you know in the early days really into entrepreneurship and then really thinking about cross-border and global opportunities and speaking about Lime right. So I met Brad through the Berkeley MBA network. He was actually many years ahead of me and was my mentor and helped me to you know get through with orientation. Then many, many years after that he recruited me to a venture capital firm. We worked together for many years as an investor. The initial idea you know of Lime was not really to found a company, we were simply interested in number one consumer-facing technology and then two- leveraging technology to solve some of the hardest problems, and mobility is one of the problems that we’re super interested in because we’re the daily users. We see the pain point not just for ourselves but for our friends and family. As an investor we actually look into many, many different sectors including ridesharing, you know autonomous driving, bike sharing as well. We spend roughly six months really doing due diligence as investors, try to find an investment target, you know for the kind of a new micro-mobility opportunity after we witness the kind of bike shift from China street bikes, to how popular it is in New York and of course I mean in Europe is also very quite sustainably successful in many markets like Paris, the valley bike ride. We’re trying to find a model and a team that can bring that dockless model outside of China and then kind of bridging the eastern supply and to meet the global demand, right. When we talk to all the players, we try to find a team, but we can’t really find a team that we think can carry on the vision. At the end of the day, we think it’s all about you know, making things happen. If we can make things happen as an investor through the capital, we would love to do that, but if we can really make that happen by adding values ourselves with a hands-on approach, why not do it ourselves? That gets us really excited because you know by living in both U.S. and China, managing cross-border team, coming from the consumer product and consumer internet space as operator and then being able to look into many, many kinds of new startup opportunities as investors, that gave us a unique perspective to do something special for that micro-mobility space. That’s how we got started in Lime.
Louisa: It’s really cool to see the different environments. Your experiences play into this story, whether it’s US and China, whether it’s your investor or your operating experience. A lot has been written about Lime actually in the headlines and I’d love to take this conversation in a slightly different direction. To explore some of the topics that are particularly pertinent to Lime at this specific stage in its life cycle that haven’t talked about and the first topic I’d love to go a little bit deeper in is, how you think about growth versus profitability especially given the capital environment today. Companies constantly have to juggle this trade-off between the two and it’s no secret that you guys have seen exponential growth with that velocity user adoption even higher than what Uber was seeing in their early days. To support that growth, you’ve also raised quite a bit of venture capital from a lot of notable firms, and we are lucky to count ourselves among them. Could you talk to us about how you think about balancing growth versus profitability and what’s optimal for you guys at this point in time?
Toby: Yeah, it’s definitely a very interesting problem for us and for many peer companies, not just in the micro-mobility space. The growth is definitely amazing and phenomenal. I would say yes; it is faster than any of the companies that we’ve seen in the technology space. With that said, there is just a lot of unmet demand for that short distance. The car is not a good solution to move people from A to B for that one to two miles or maybe three miles because of the congested road; because of the kind of just inefficiency of getting a car at the time that you needed in the rush hours. I mean in general- every day, most of the time. We’ve been you know growing really fast by launching our products in over a hundred markets, five continents, over 20 countries, and we’ve had over 10 million sign-ups and then 34 million trips in total as well. So, growth is definitely something that we feel very, very excited about. And in the past two years of the company’s history I would say growth is important because one, we need to demonstrate the strong product-market fit, and also two, we want to test the boundary of what type of market is a good fit for us. I think as many startups, first, you add the learn the kind of run and learn phase. Being able to grow really fast to kind of learn from the growth momentum is super important. With that said I think for 2019 and beyond, because of the scale that we were able to achieve in a very short amount of time definitely you know profitability and then kind of sustainable growth. Growth is important. It will be hard for us to optimize anything before we have a certain scale. I think one, I’m still a strong believer of achieving the scale first so that you can learn by entering so many markets and then learn by your day to day operation. And those are the valuable experience and resources that we have versus other people or other peer operator and we can learn a lot faster by improving our profitability if we want to. Which was the goal for this year. I wouldn’t say it’s either or, I would say there is definitely a way to achieve both and that would be the goal for this year. I don’t see the growth slowing down. It will be still pretty fast, not as fast as last year but will be still fastest, I think you know on all of the industry in the tech space. The profitability will also have very strong confidence that we will achieve profitability in many, many markets and we’ve already seen a positive change so far. I would say you know for this topic it’s really kind of positive little base of you launch, you grow fast and launch in more markets so you can you know a lot more operational experience and product experience user feedback so that you can take all those lessons to help with our optimization on the profitability. And without the scale, without the growth, I don’t think that we have a solid foundation for optimization as well. I think it’s helping each other. And this year, that will be the key focus for us to do both.
Louisa: That’s a really great point. It doesn’t have to be a trade-off in either or between growth and profitability. Once you reach that critical scale you can actually have a much larger playground with which to experiment with these different levers that lead to that ultimate outcome. If we were just to focus in on unit economics, I’m sure a lot of people whether it’s investors or other operators- a question on their mind is how do you draw a throughput line to a long-term unit economic positive company? And it’s a term often used in venture capital as a proxy for that long-term profitability. We’ve seen in the food and grocery delivery companies kind of like DoorDash and Instacarts of the world that there are a couple of key variables like deliveries per labor hour or the ability to match orders that really move the needle in terms of driving that unit profitability. What’s really going to matter for Lime? What are those key levers for this business?
Toby: Yeah. Similarly, we focus on a few things. Apparently, it is all about the top line and bottom line. The top line for us it’s important to have you know sufficient fleet so that people find it very reliable and then that would turn into high utilization and high utilization will provide users a better experience and then they were able to ride more and ride more often. Those are the kind of three levers. The number of fleet, the utilization which we call a trip per vehicle per day, and the revenue per trip as well. Right, those are the top three levers. And then on the bottom line front, there are many, many cost buckets but I would say the core ones are, number one, depreciation. What’s the life-cycle of the scooter? How do you depreciate that into a kind of formula? And then two is the operational cost right. Those two are the major ones that we look at among of five or sixth things. I think utilization, depreciation and operational costs are the three main things. And we, based on our experience and then the benchmark that we see in the markets we are actually seeing a very, very positive trend and healthy economics compared with some of the other industry, sometimes even better than the rideshare companies in the early days. But of course, there are charges for the businesses that many markets still need time to educate in order to have higher utilization. But we’ve known that in many of the markets by penetrating fast, by doing a better user education right. So, and not to worry about the utilization front. I would say the depreciation is definitely something you know we need to spend even more time because after all the scooter is the new product line right. Compared with two hundred year bike and a few hundred years cars the scooter has been only around for less than a decade. Especially for electric scooters. How to make sure that we can build robust, safe and reliable scooters that provide people with riding experience. And also last long. That’s the challenge for not just us but also the entire industry. And we were able to kind of deliver very, very positive results in terms of iterating the product you know improving the product by operating in many markers, by operating in a longer period of time. Right. If you look at our product innovation, we’ve had eight iterations and then three major generations of scooters in a matter of only twelve months, and that’s faster than anybody. The lifecycle of the scooter has been many times longer now with the first generation and many, and also longer than many of the competitors off the shelf product right. We feel very, very proud of that and that will significantly bring the depreciation cost down and also our operational costs. Similar to some of the other industry like for delivery right. We can also optimize, operational costs by better utilizing the time of our operation team, our crowdsource juicer team, using big data, using the heat map and the algorithm that we built throughout the day-to-day operation from you know over a hundred markets so that they can be more efficient running from places to places to collect, charge, and sometimes repair the scooters. This is all about hourly throughput and I think you know the more – the longer that we operate the more markets that we operate at a global scale we’ll be able to you know enjoy that benefit of optimizing the operational costs a lot faster and a lot bigger than competitors. And at the end of the day, all of these three drivers putting together would yield very positive economics. We’ve already seen a very positive trend in many, many of the markets and I hope to share more in the future.
Louisa: To your point on Lime’s hardware advantage. I’d love to focus on this for a minute because it seems like that’s driving a lot of the operational efficiency of the business overall. And hardware seems to be a skill set that’s orthogonal to what a lot of competitors at Uber and Lyft are good at. And it’s also a topic that many US-based venture capitalists are not as familiar with or not as focused on. Yet in China, we see the astronomical rise of hardware-centric companies like DJI and Xiaomi that are now commanding a huge global presence. What do you think gives China an edge in hardware and how is Lime positioned to take advantage of this ecosystem?
Toby: Yeah, so hardware is hard in general. This is hard not because of the complexity of the process. It’s all about the ecosystem. Because hardware, the development cycle takes a lot longer. The capital investment is a lot bigger. If you look at what’s happening in China and also some of the kind of hardware-centric countries, they’re not just benefiting from the low labor costs. Of course, that’s one of the advantages but it’s really the positive loop that’s created by serving the global markets with their great hardware supply along the way because the more that they get, again it’s about the scale, it’s about the experience, like how we operate our scooters. The more we operate scooters and for them really, I mean supply the global demand that they can learn you know what’s needed for different markets and then they can tune their supply chain, you know to cater that need and also the ecosystem matters a lot. For example, it’s really hard to build different manufacturers to supply different parts in one region. If you look at Shenzhen now because of all this hardware companies and ecosystem or centric in one city you can basically find you know over a thousand different parts manufacturer, not just a thousand manufacturers but a thousand manufacturers that specializing in different parts and that’s unseen you know in any part of the world right, you can build a prototype in Shenzhen basically within a week and sometimes it may take a lot longer in other parts of the world. So enjoying that and more company by enjoying that kind of ecosystem more and more companies will go there to putting more orders and then that will again you know kind of help the whole industry and ecosystem to build better capabilities to lower the cost and kind of improve the efficiency. It’s all about creating that positive loop, to scale that fast, and then build that ecosystem within the region. I think China got a benefit to start from the low labor kind of system and structure and then really build that ecosystem around it. Now it’s a very robust mote for China in terms of the hardware innovation. And I think many companies are trying to get to that ecosystem to leverage that. It also takes local expertise to understand what it takes to kind of navigate through this ecosystem. That’s why you know for some of the other markets, if they want to build the same ecosystem, it might take longer. That’s why we see it’s more concentrating in one region and one market.
Louisa: And similarly, it seems like Lime’s familiarity with that hardware supply chain in China seems to be a moat for you guys as well.
Toby: Yeah. We do believe in that. That’s why from the get-go we invest a lot in the hardware team and supply chain, because we know building a very good team would yield a very good product in the long run, right. That’s why we’re able to iterate the product really fast and also take feedback from the market fast and kind of reflect that in our next generation of product innovation. That will help us to get into more markets because more markets, the newer markets are interested in an improved product, right, so everything adds up. Help us to grow a lot faster not just from market expansion perspective but also from the product innovation perspective.
Louisa: If you’re looking forward three years from today, what will Lime scooters be able to do then that they can’t do today? Are there specific areas you’re focused on improving?
Toby: Yeah totally. I think again you know product experience is something that we keep working on. Right. There are a lot more things that we still want to deliver with the product. But we just don’t have the bandwidth and then now is pretty much basic function. We want it to be long lasting, very robust. In terms of the customized, personalized riding experience, there’s a lot more than we can do right. For example, in navigation, for example, reminding the users about the local kind of attractions and the point of the interest. A lot more software and hardware integration that we can do on top of the exciting scooter network that we built together is something that we hope to continuously add value for our user. And the other thing that I think at Lime everybody is super excited is about improving the quality of the city, right. The infrastructure of the city many, many people that we talked to want to have better infrastructure in terms of the bike lane or scooter lane or bike or scooter parking, right, which is quite lacking in the developed world especially in the U.S. right, it’s quite car-centric. In the next three years hopefully, with our continuous push and further penetration, we can either direct or indirect influence the city and work alongside with the city to improve the infrastructure to build more bike lanes, build more parking spot for the non-car vehicles.
Louisa: It sounds like from kind of all of the constituents involved whether it’s the city, the infrastructure regulators or the supply chain in China, Lime is just a really incredibly complex business to operate, especially considering that it operates on a global scale. There are also network effects that kick in when a market reaches a tipping point in terms of riders and vehicles. In your mind, what’s going to be the true long-term moat for this business as you look forward?
Toby: Yeah, I think number one, the experience of operation is definitely important because this is a complex on the ground operation, right. Being able to understand how to operate in a different type of markets matters. Like to operate in New York is different from operating in San Francisco, and it’s also quite different from operating in San Mateo. I think having that global footprint and not just the breadth but also the depth in terms of understanding the market dynamic and in terms of how to operate at different scale is very important and I think we, by operating in so many markets, allow us to learn a lot faster and then be able to provide better operational kind of readout. That creates a very good experience for the users, I think that’s one and two I think it’s really the hardware supply part of it. As I said, you know, understand that users will help us to build a better product and then invest a lot, in a lot more and a lot earlier in the supply chain allow us to iterate the product a lot faster. So that will create a more reliable experience for the users and help them to stick with our hardware and app, right. The third thing I think is really about the community. Partnership. Right. So, we were, we’re probably the first company that set up the community and government relationship team in disruptive kind of tag industry because we think that’s a very important part for us to long-term sustainably operate in the city. We see Lime as a true part of the eco-cities ecosystem because it’s visible. Quite similar to the public transit right. So, we invest a lot in that to help us to build the brand not just for the user but also the nonusers and then also the city officials, right. Having that trust between Lime and the city it takes a long time, and I think you know everything that we’ve done in the past two years is the kind of advantage that would be for us a long term you know serving the city.
Louisa: Outside of the US, China, as we mentioned before, seems to have been a petri dish of innovation in the transportation space over the last few years um and they’ve produced some pretty valuable companies like Mobike that’s sold for 2.7 billion dollars. Ofo which was once valued at 2 billion dollars and I think Hello-Bike, which recently also just raised a round. In your opinion, what has worked well for these companies and conversely, are there mistakes that these companies made that Lime can learn from?
Toby: I would say they are very you know respectful peer operator and we actually learned a lot from them right. We learn a lot from not just the Chinese counterparts but also the global transportation companies like Uber, like Kareem, like some of the other rideshare companies like Lyft. It’s, at the end of the day I think there are a few things that matter and we just need to stick to all this most important kind of categories and always invest in those categories. Number one is about the product, right, so I think I’ve already shared some of our thoughts, but I think this is very, very important to stay true to what the user needs. And for our business, is a little bit more complex because it’s not about just making the users happy but also making the cities happy. The product should serve the purpose, to serve the two kinds of the audience at the same time. So, whether we can continue to improve the product and focusing on the product kind of features to deliver a better user experience to make it more reliable so that people always consider scooters as the first choice of their transportation mode. And also, on the other hand, whether the product improvement features can help the city feel, oh this is something that I really want. In addition to that, I really see that as a long term solution in addition to my city’s public transit options. So I think you know making sure the product is always kind of our customer-centric is super important that’s one and then two, local insides and local approach is important right. Because we’re running a global business, different markets have different needs and there’s no one approach fits all kind of scenario. We’ve seen a lot of interesting insights from different markets and some we can borrow and kind of share across the board, but a lot different. So how to kind of take all those local insights and then kind of customize our operational approach. Community engagement is quite important. Last, but not least, I would say it’s about kind of leveraging the technology in the way that we can kind of continue to build on what we know. In this case, it’s about the IoT network, it’s about the data that we collected in an anonymous way. Right. So, to show with the city, to help them to improve the infrastructure so that we build further trust and leverage the data to help us to a better place the scooters so that users can have a better experience. So, I think focusing on the things that are unique to the business and always think about the local needs are some of the key things that we think we should continue to do.
Louisa: To your point about the idiosyncratic needs of different cities and how you have a customized, more tailored approach. Have you noticed that there are certain cities that are a better fit for scooters than others? And if so, do you have a thesis on what makes a good market for scooters?
Toby: Yeah, for good markets, I think you know many markets need a scooter as long as people need to walk, and sometimes when people feel is too long to walk and then to too short to drive, there’s a need. Of course, from the prioritization perspective, there are more- there are some markets as needing the scooters more than some of the other markets. I would say there are a few things that we look at, so number one is really the kind of density of the market, right. The denser the market is the harder it is to get around with the car and people are looking for alternative transportation modes. That’s how the bike and scooters come in to serve people more efficiently and two, I think is really about the commuting pattern. If we see a market that has either a very strong public transit system or a public transit system is too slow in terms of the development cycle to meet the demand. I think there’s a need for the two will lie way to personal mobility which is scooter and bike. The third thing is really kind of the overall vision of the city. Some of the cities are more progressive. Some are slightly slower to adopt new ideas. I think we would love to work with both types of cities but of course, I mean if the city is moving a lot faster than the others, we are more than happy to kind of accelerate our footprint in those markets. That’s why you know to compare with the US markets we’ve seen European markets moving a lot faster and they’re more welcoming this type of mobility options and they’re more ready from an infrastructure perspective, and the last thing is really infrastructure right. We would love to see more bike lanes, we would love to see more people riding using the non-car vehicles already. Right, those are positive signs for us to decide where to go first.
Louisa: To your point on markets that are a little less progressive, the ones that are hesitant to adopt one of the key areas of concern for them is this topic of safety. It seems like that’s been reported on the media as well pretty recently. And we all know that scooters provide great leverage to transportation networks in terms of energy and space efficiency which yields greater traffic bandwidth. But despite these positive externalities, there are still lots of people who are concerned about safety. And so I’m curious from a customer education perspective, how do you think about improving safety for the service and what have you guys learned along the way?
Toby: You know we take safety really seriously and this is the top priority for the company. I think for anything that’s running on the street and touching people, safety is just the number one thing that we need to kind of hold really true. We invest a lot in safety from a product perspective, from the marketing and education perspective, and also from the customer support perspective. On the product front row so the Lime Generation 3 scooter, which you also tried in our office, we are super excited about that because it’s more robust. We have dual suspension and three braking mechanism and the sensors that we built into the scooters can detect many kinds of malfunctioning. So, we’re excited to launch that product and then that will help you know the user to have you know basically provide a very, very safe riding experience for the users which take a lot of lessons that we learned in the past. And secondly, we invest a lot in the marketing and education campaign together with cities. For example, we invested three million in our Respect the Ride marketing campaign to educate people who ride on the bike lane, don’t ride down on the sidewalk and ride responsibly and in addition to that we also distribute a lot of helmets. About a quarter, a quarter million helmets are either distributed or you know to be distributed to our riders. And from a customer service perspective, right. We have insurance cover every single ride. And we have 24/7 customer service, which we look into every single ticket that got reported to the system and we’ll have fast response, responsive team. And of course, the company, the company has been growing really fast. There are still things that we can do better, but we’re super, super committed to improve the safety.
Louisa: The last thing I want to ask is, what are you most excited about? What’s ahead for Lime this year?
Toby: Yeah, I would say more people riding Lime. At the end of the day what kind of wakes me up every morning, is the possibility of enabling Lime to make people’s life easier, more convenient and you know provide the affordable form of transportation for people, that people otherwise don’t get that option. Right, I think touching people’s life multiple times and then impact them in a positive way is something that I feel very excited. To be more specific, we would love to you know, one, keep iterating a product so that we can serve more markets and more users. Hopefully, by the end of the year, we’ll be able to enter more countries and more markets. Ideally, double if not more for users. Now we have more than 10 million signed up. We hope to see you know a few more acts in terms of the sign-ups and our weekly riders. And last but not least, is really the long-term partnership with the city. In the past, we invested a lot in terms of the city relationship building and trying to kind of really work with them hand-in-hand, listen to their feedback, and this year I think is the moment and an opportunity for us to realize a lot of things that we kind of heard in the past and put that into the product and into the daily operation in terms of safety, in terms of parking, so that you know the product and the service is you know, kind of a very integrated system within the city and not just riders like it but also the non-riders like it as well.
Louisa: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us today Toby.
Toby: Thank you.
Narrator: Thank you for listening to IVP’s Hyper-Growth Podcast. You can learn more about us on IVP.com or join the conversation on Twitter by tweeting @IVP.